Curse

Axel Zinfandel · May 01, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

What exactly are you spamming that you -need- that much energy, really? [Attacker's insight] is enough even with low investment, especially if you throw something like [Lyssa's Assault].

Point being, with high mysticism I've run a full build focused on spamming attack skills without the need of -any- energy management skills.

Besides, the lowest recharging attack skill you'd be using is what, 4 seconds? and costs 5 energy? I believe you recover that much in natural regen waiting for it to recharge.

It's definitly not a -useless- skill persay, but unless you lack the ability (low mysticism) or are the simple minded 1-2-3 type, you can easily get around having to devote an elite for something like that.

Saraneth · May 01, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

with high mysticism I've run a full build focused on spamming attack skills without the need of -any- energy management skills.

Again, mysticism relies on enchant loss. The more enchants you lose, and the faster you lose them, the more nrg you gain within a set period of time. If you didn't need nrg management skills, then you either had rapid enchant loss or weren't "spamming attack skills."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

[Attacker's Insight] is enough even with low investment, especially if you throw something like [Lyssa's Assault].

Your original argument was based on mysticism alone providing enough nrg management for a dervish. Even mentioning other sources of nrg implies that you doubt your own argument's worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Besides, the lowest recharging attack skill you'd be using is what, 4 seconds? and costs 5 energy? I believe you recover that much in natural regen waiting for it to recharge. [/B]

Attack skills, not skill. [[Eremites Attack (PVE)], [[Mystic Sweep (PVE)], [[Victorious Sweep], etc.

Axel Zinfandel · May 02, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

My original argument was pointing out abusing heroes to hotkey enchants like Patient Spirit, or Reversal of Fortune on you, which end quickly and provide you with very good energy management without stopping yourself.
Say you're spamming attacks, need energy. Hit a key, target yourself, hit another key, patient spirit on you. It ends, you get healed and gain 4/5 energy. Bam, that's one of you're attack skills right there.

If you -do- have low mysticism, which by all means you probably shouldn't, but if you DO, I was just pointing out that Attacker's Insight is a very nice skill coupled with Lyssa's Assault.

Saraneth · May 02, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

If you -do- have low mysticism, which by all means you probably shouldn't...

Define: "low mysticism." If you're interested in avatars, then high mysticism would be the way to go. In regard to nrg, mysticism will always pale in comparison to [[Zealous Vow], as its effect can be amplified by hitting mutliple foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

...Attacker's Insight is a very nice skill coupled with Lyssa's Assault.

Assuming that [[Lyssa's Assault] would only be used in conjuction with [[Attacker's Insight], you'd end up wasting 2 slots for nrg management with a 15 sec recharge. Considering that you won't be using [[Lyssa's Assault] unless [[Attacker's Insight] is available, you lose out on dps.

Expherious · May 02, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megas XLR

My favorite skill to use for a tank Dervish is Great Dwarf Armor. It seems to fit Dervish very well and allows you to use Windwalkers because it replaces the HP you sacrifice by not using Survivor Insignias.

I like to throw Conviction, Vital Boon and AoB for a Huge armor boost + WW's you can tank anyTING!

Tyla · May 02, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

Not cast, spam. You'd have to lose an enchant on every swing for mysticism to compare with [[Zealous Vow].

If you need more energy management than [[attackers insight] and a zealous scythe on a Dervish, delete your Dervish please. I'm not even counting Mysticism here, and when it comes to it, throw on [[attackers insight] after AoM, hit two attack skills, gain energy and have two attack skills in for free. You're just a disgrace to the class if you can't manage energy with shit like that.

Seriously, you need energy management sometimes, but unless you've got 2 pips of energy and you're spamming skills like that like no tomorrow with a weapon unable to hit multiple targets, then you should really sort your stuff out.

Saraneth · May 03, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If you need more energy management than [[Attacker's Insight] and a zealous scythe on a Dervish...

I never said that you'd need more nrg management than [[Attacker's Insight]. However, I did mention that use of [[Attacker's Insight] with [[Lyssa's Assault] would be a waste.

The original discussion centered on mysticism vs. [[Zealous Vow], which is ideal for spamming attacks since it outdoes mysticism in nrg gain in most situations.

Tyla · May 03, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

It's still part of this energy management discussion. Zealous Vow just isn't useful when you've got access to a non-elite energy management skill that's completely stupid in power or when you can gain 3 energy every attack when correctly positioned using a zealous scythe. Mysticism also is pretty powerful, but again, you do not need energy management past Attackers' Insight or a zealous scythe, so all in all it's a pretty bad discussion when you've already got something far more powerful you can talk about.

Seriously, it's like discussing the Amiga and ZX Spectrum models of computers when we have far better to work with in terms of space used, power and capacity.

Megas XLR · May 03, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

With Zealous Vow you don't even need a Zealous Scythe though, you can pull out a Vampiric or Elemental Scythe and start doing even more damage. Zealous Vow does not pale in comparison to Mysticism, they're just two different styles of gameplay.

I'd say it's like comparing a PC and Mac.

EDIT: I honestly don't see why it would be any different from a Warrior pulling out Warrior's Endurance. People praise that it has unlimited energy, while Zealous Vow does the exact same thing.

Tyla · May 03, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Jesus christ...

Zealous Vow costs an elite slot. You know what that elite slot can do for you? Shit tons of stuff. If you want vamp so badly, pull out AoG, you don't HAVE to camp your Zealous weapon set, because there is a super special awesome thing called weapon swapping. In any case, I personally don't touch zealous at all because I don't need to, Attackers' Insight has it all for me.

Also, the difference between Warriors' Endurance and Zealous Vow is skill selection and your profession in general. Warriors have 2 energy pips and spammable attack skills in Strength which are awfully strong, [[power attack] is one of these, but spamming it with 2 pips just kills your energy even with a zealous weapon. When you get Warriors' Endurance, hey look, 3 energy every hit, it can't be stripped, it lasts ages... There are lots of other elites, but the skills the elite powers favour non-elite skills a lot. Zealous Vow, not so much. We have Attackers' Insight and a zealous scythe which can give up to 3 energy an attack. We don't have to use both or any of them, but they're there, and as long as they are, we do not need to waste an elite slot.

Megas XLR · May 03, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I think you're overreacting. I didn't say that Mysticism is a bad attribute and that I don't use it, but Zealous Vow isn't completely useless.

They're two completely different styles of using a Dervish.

Bobby2 · May 03, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

So [zealous vow] can be used to spam attack skills. Problem is, besides [mystic sweep], [victorious sweep], and possibly [eremite's attack], I can't think of others I'd want to be spamming - and I don't need ZV for the above

Tyla · May 03, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megas XLR

I think you're overreacting. I didn't say that Mysticism is a bad attribute and that I don't use it, but Zealous Vow isn't completely useless.

They're two completely different styles of using a Dervish.

I'm not saying Zealous Vow is completely useless, or arguing for or against Mysticism. When it's something as tiny as this, it's not a different style at all. You're still hitting things, you're still able to spam attack skills, the only difference is the skills you're using, you might as well be saying that walking with blue shoes on is completely different to walking with green shoes on. There's nearly no difference.

Saraneth · May 03, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Zealous Vow costs an elite slot. You know what that elite slot can do for you? Shit tons of stuff.

Good observation; however, [[Warrior's Endurance] wars also run without "shit tons of stuff" since they're capable of generating enough dmg to compensate. The same can be said of [[Zealous Vow] dervishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

...the difference between Warriors' Endurance and Zealous Vow is skill selection...

When it comes to [[Warrior's Endurance] scythe wars, the skill selection doesn't vary greatly from [[Zealous Vow] dervish bars.

[build prof=W/D name="WE Scythe" box strength=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Warrior's Endurance][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Power Attack][Whirlwind Attack][Flail][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]

[build prof=D/W name="Zealous Vow" box myst=3 wind=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Zealous Vow][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Victorious Sweep][Whirlwind Attack][Whirling Charge][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Warriors' Endurance, hey look, 3 energy every hit, it can't be stripped, it lasts ages...

Even if [[Zealous Vow] was stripped, its 12 sec recharge allows for a rather swift recovery, and with that in mind, its 20 sec duration makes it every bit as maintainable as [[Warrior's Endurance].

This also serves separate it from [[Attacker's Insight], which has a longer recharge and can also be stripped. While the chance of it being stripped before you get off three attacks remains low, the likelihood of you running into nrg issues when it occurs does not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I'm not saying Zealous Vow is completely useless, or arguing for or against Mysticism.

That was the main focus of the argument, everything else is tangent if not irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You're still hitting things, you're still able to spam attack skills, the only difference is the skills you're using...

With exception to [[Zealous Vow]'s capacity to outperform both mysticism and [[Attacker's Insight] in nrg management, yes, the difference seems to reside in preference. If you feel the need to limit yourself to lesser nrg gain, then by all means, do so.

Axel Zinfandel · May 04, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

That build you posted can easily be accomplished by using higher mysticism and attackers insight (possibly Zealous as said above) AND it would free up an elite skill.

So, Zealous Vow isn't useless, but that build seriously seems like you're trying to run something Dervs generally around used for. A full/near full bar of attack skills definitely isn't the best thing. If you dislike 'stopping to use enchants', perhaps you should look into a different profession, because enchantments are what dervishes are about.

Comparing Warrior's Endurance with Zealous Vow in terms of effectiveness is pointless, because it's two different stories. Warriors NEED Warrior's endurance to spam good energy attack skills. They can't easily spam skills like power attack on their own.

Dervishes do not -need- Zealous Vow to spam attack skills. Sure it makes it easy, just hit a button and bam, but it's generally frowned upon because when you use an elite skill you can generally work around with non-elite alternatives ([Avatar of Balthazar]), you lose effectiveness.

Why run ZV when you can throw in Attackers Insight, raise Mysticism, and thrown in something like Wounding Strike?

Tyla · May 04, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

Good observation; however, [[Warrior's Endurance] wars also run without "shit tons of stuff" since they're capable of generating enough dmg to compensate. The same can be said of [[Zealous Vow] dervishes.

4 pips of energy, lack of attack skills that you can hit every 3 seconds.

Quote:

When it comes to [[Warrior's Endurance] scythe wars, the skill selection doesn't vary greatly from [[Zealous Vow] dervish bars.

Give me skills you'd want to spam on a Dervish. Why waste your elite when you don't need to?

Quote:

[build prof=W/D name="WE Scythe" box strength=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Warrior's Endurance][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Power Attack][Whirlwind Attack][Flail][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]

[build prof=D/W name="Zealous Vow" box myst=3 wind=12 scythe=12 desc="Weapon #1: Vampiric Scythe{br}Weapon #2: Sundering Scythe"][Zealous Vow][Mystic Sweep][Eremites Attack][Victorious Sweep][Whirlwind Attack][Whirling Charge][Asuran Scan][Aura of Holy Might][/build]

You need Zealous Vow to spam them? With a Warrior you have less to work with, because they actually need the energy management.

Quote:

Even if [[Zealous Vow] was stripped, its 12 sec recharge allows for a rather swift recovery, and with that in mind, its 20 sec duration makes it every bit as maintainable as [[Warrior's Endurance].

This also serves separate it from [[Attacker's Insight], which has a longer recharge and can also be stripped. While the chance of it being stripped before you get off three attacks remains low, the likelihood of you running into nrg issues when it occurs does not.

You only need to use Attackers' Insight very rarely if you're not bad.

Quote:

That was the main focus of the argument, everything else is tangent if not irrelevant.

Well you're seeming to be arguing with me, aren't you?

Quote:

With exception to [[Zealous Vow]'s capacity to outperform both mysticism and [[Attacker's Insight] in nrg management, yes, the difference seems to reside in preference. If you feel the need to limit yourself to lesser nrg gain, then by all means, do so.

You don't need to "outperform" it. You could take a bar full of energy management skills too, but that doesn't mean you need them. Attackers' Insight and possibly a zealous scythe fixes all of your problems, job done. 4 pips is more than enough energy management to add onto that.

_Nihilist_ · May 05, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Why gimp yourself by buffing Wind Prayers for 2 skills and dropping your Mysticism when you can run something much more effective by ignoring the fact that [Zealous [email protected]] is really only a piss-poor skill when compared to other Derv Elites that don't force your hand into investing into another attribute line that isn't needed?

Improvavel · May 05, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I think some people both overestimate the effect of deep wound every 3 secs vs a deep wound every 6 secs with + damage.

I also think most people underestimate [[attackers insight] and mysticism and/or are too lazy to swap weapons. [[Avatar of Melandru] really benefits of weapon swap between staff an scythes (zealous and vampiric).

Truth is [[Avatar of Melandru] + [[wearying strike] beats [[wounding strike]+ whatever in a dervish.

[[Wounding strike] is very powerful. Deep wound is really powerful, but I bet that if PvP players had ability to keep an avatar permanently, dervishes would see loads of play, something that a powerful [[Wounding strike] can't make happen.

+100 health is meh. Immunity to conditions is pretty good. Both rolled in a single package are great.

Additionally [[wounding strike] dervishes have no reason to bring [[eternal aura] (and some non-avatar dervishes seems to have forgotten its powers).

[[Eternal aura] deals 93 (or 100 at max rank) nearby aoe armor ignoring damage, recharges [[attackers insight] (15 secs recharge my ass), allows permanent [[aura of holy might] and allows permanent [[heart of fury].

So between [[attackers insight], zealous scythe, mysticism triggering with all those protection spells ([[protective spirit], [[spirit bond (PvE)], [[shield of absorption], [[aegis (pve)],etc) ending and the use of a staff, you just aggro with staff on hand, cast all your enchantments and then scythe them to death with free attacks. Then you enchantments end you cast another [[attackers insight] just recharged by [[eternal aura] and proceed smacking the enemy down with all that energy.

faraaz · May 05, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I used the Zealous Vow build but with Wounding Strike as the elite with 0 points in wind prayers and didn't have any energy problems on my derv...

You guys are running -5 e inscrips or something?

Bobby2 · May 05, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

[[Eternal aura] deals 93 (or 100 at max rank) nearby aoe armor ignoring damage, recharges [[attackers insight] (15 secs recharge my ass), allows permanent [[aura of holy might] and allows permanent [[heart of fury].

I agree with everything but this bit. [air of superiority] > [eternal aura] in almost all situations.